Stringencies Part 1

A few years ago, a former Facebook friend posted, a few days before Passover, "Just got up off my hands and knees, after cleaning the cracks in the floor tiles with a tooth brush for six hours". I wrote to him "This is a needless stringency, unless you are planning to eat or cook on the floor. The prohibition of owning hametz only applies to pieces larger than the size of an egg. Although the prohibition of eating hametz applies to even a crumb, that is only if you know it's there, or at least have good reason to suspect its presence. We are commanded to rejoice in our Festival, not to become enslaved by anxieties and insecurities". He replied "what are you talking about? Passover is all about stringencies". I can find that idea neither in Torah or Talmud. Yes, we have a halachic principle that we may, in a situation of doubt, be lenient in a rabbinic law, but we must be strict in a Biblical law. But where was the doubt in the above case? RAMBAM makes clear that even in the principle that we need to be strict in a Biblical law, this concept is itself purely rabbinic. (RASHBA disagrees).Biblically, if an object or an action is doubtful, it is permissible. The rabbis instituted that we are to be more careful, so as not to violate the laws of G-d. The Talmud rules that if I find a piece of meat lying in the street, in a place where kosher butcher shops outnumber non kosher, the meat may be considered kosher. Nevertheless, the rabbis ruled it should be avoided, as there is more than a reasonable doubt that it might not be kosher. The Talmud enumerates many guidelines to what is and isn't a reasonable doubt in each case. Yet, many communities take a very stringent view on many issues, way beyond any rhyme or reason. Their feeling is that we can show our devotion to G-d by taking the most strict approach to every law. Think of a husband who loves his wife so much, he can't imagine doing anything that may remotely hurt her feelings. So one who truly loves G-d will want to please Him, and in no way offend Him. Others disagree. They argue that stringencies are generally not shows of love, but rather of insecurity in one's relationship with G-d. Moreover, they often violate the intent of the law, or even a larger principle. Going above and beyond the requirements of halachah to avoid hametz on Passover, will lessen the sense of joy and freedom we are urged to feel. If one is overly strict in the menstrual laws, the ideal of a loving relationship between spouses can be hurt, not to mention the mitzvah of procreation. The Talmud pictures King David as devoting a great deal of time and effort every day, into permitting a woman to her husband a day sooner. Qualified Orthodox rabbis spend much time learning the details of these laws, not just to say "well, I'm not sure if this stain invalidates you, so just be strict". Moreover, stringencies can lead to an unjustified sense of accomplishment and pride (arrogance). Rabbi Nachman even said that they lead to depression, and are to be avoided. (Please don't write that you know a follower of Rabbi Nachman who observes all sorts of stringencies. We live among other Jews who do things differently, and follow rabbis who have the wildest ideas of propriety. Rabbi Nachman would not approve. Rabbi Natan, his main disciple, makes a point of saying that Rabbi Nachman observed no stringencies).Rabbi Shabtai Sabato, a Sepharadi Rosh Yeshiva in Israel, said to me once "Look how the rabbis of the Talmud put every law through 'thirteen sifters' before saying either yes or no. They didn't just say 'we're not sure, so let's avoid the question by being strict". As you may have guessed, this, too, is an Ashkenazi-Sepharadi battleground. (There are exceptions on each side, however). The approach that stringencies are a good thing, is a major feature of (most) Ashkenazic opinion, whereas most Sepharadic opinion prefers a straightforward lenient approach. Askenazim tend to respect a rabbi who can show that something we have been seeing as permissible is actually problematic (I have previously shown that the standards of avoiding insects in food gets stricter every five years or so), while Sepharadim will hail the rabbi who shows that an action assumed to be prohibited is actually permissible. Each group will have its sources, as well as its logical arguments. Each will see its approach as following the will of G-d. None of this is arbitrary. Already in the first century BCE, the Jews were divided between the strict approach of the School of Shammai, and the lenient approach of the School of Hillel. We are told that this debate went on for several centuries, until a Heavenly Voice rang out "Both are the words of the living G-d, but the halachah follows Hillel". We sure could use such a voice today! What are the basic considerations for each approach, and where do they come from? To what degree do history and sociology, rather than purely religious considerations come into the picture? To be continued.

Shabbat part 20

The evening service of Saturday night is recited with mixed feelings. On the one hand, the day of joy and delight is over. On the other, a new week is beginning, blessed by the Shabbat that preceded it. There is both a feeling of dread, as well as a feeling of great optimism. According to Talmudic lore, the dead in Gehinom (Purgatory) are released from their suffering for Shabbat; forced to return as soon as the Jewish people recite their evening prayers. But the rabbis say that Mashiach will not come on a Shabbat. We await the arrival of Elijah on Saturday night, announcing his arrival. Many sing hymns on Saturday night in praise of Elijah. The main part of the evening prayer is fairly routine, with the exception of a short addition in the amidah proclaiming the end of Shabbat, and asking for a blessed, safe week. After the amidah, there are several additions. There is a Psalm meant to ward off evil (Psalm 91), as well as a recitation of the angels' praise of G-d (Holy, Holy, Holy) recited in Hebrew and Aramaic. The Kabbalistic explanation of this custom is based on the idea (mentioned in Talmud) that the angelic forces hate the Aramaic language. It is very close to Hebrew, yet it is not Hebrew. It represents twilight, the most dangerous time of day. Therefore, we recite the passages in Hebrew, and immediately translate them into Aramaic, as if to say to any and all accusing angels, G-d is in charge, from the highest levels to the lowest. At the conclusion of the service, the beautiful Havdalah prayer is said. It should be recited at home, but we also recite it at the synagogue for the benefit of those who may not have wine at home. A cup of wine is filled (many allow it to overflow, as a sign of abundance and blessing). A braided candle is lit, symbolizing a strong light to illuminate the darkness ahead. Sweet-smelling spices are held, symbolizing consolation for the special over soul we receive on Shabbat, but has now departed. Sepharadim will usually use twigs of fragrant trees, especially myrtles. Many Sepharadim bless on myrtles at each Shabbat meal as well. The same myrtles are used at Havdalah. First, verses of encouragement and hope are recited. Exactly which verses vary by community. The blessing on wine is said, followed by the spices. A blessing for "the lights of fire" (as opposed to the destructive nature of fire) is recited. Then comes the Havdalah ("separation") blessing. We praise G-d for making distinctions; between the Holy and the Profane, between Light and Darkness, between Israel and the Nations, between the Seventh Day and the Six Work Days. Sometimes all these seem like a blur. But having just experienced Shabbat, we can now have a perspective. The wine is drunk, the candle is extinguished in some of the wine. Many have the custom of dipping their fingers into the wine that has been used to put out the candle, and placing some on their eyes (for proper vision, physically and spiritually), on their temples for wisdom, and on their pockets for material blessing. All present will wish each other a good week (Shavu'a Tov in Hebrew, A Gut Voch in Yiddish). A small meal is held, as though to escort the Shabbat Queen from our homes (Melaveh Malka). In some homes, the Shabbat candles are set up for the next Shabbat at this time. That is what keeps us going. It has been said "More than the Jews have kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept the Jews"

Shabbat part 19

The Talmud urges a nap on Shabbat afternoon as a way of adding further delight to this day of delights. This is not a law, and many choose instead to study Torah, or to go visiting neighbors and friends. In Israel, where there is a six day work week (although this is changing), this time is ideal to catch up either on sleep, or other forms of quiet recreation. Most Jewish communities have programs for children, giving Mom and Dad a chance to have some quality alone time. In Ashkenazi communities, where synagogue services end around noon, it is usually impossible to have time for a nap or visiting, except during the Summer, when days are long. Sepharadim generally get home around 10 am, and will have time to "catch forty winks" even in the Winter. ARI z"l urges sleeping at this time, not only as a delight, but as this time is very auspicious, and one who is worthy will get messages from Heaven in their dreams. Leisure time is such a rare commodity in our modern world. When one does have such time, it is usually dominated by TV, Facebook, or other distractions that keep us from true peace. On Shabbat, it is as though those things do not exist. We are alone with loved ones, ourselves, and G-d. Upon awakening, most people take a short walk, greeting neighbors with Shabbat Shalom, or Gut Shabbos along the way. Soon, it is time to return to the Synagogue for afternoon services (Minhah). Whereas the mood of Friday night was quiet and Feminine, Shabbat morning exuberant and Masculine, Shabbat Afternoon is the combination of the two; similar to the peaceful joyous, loving feeling of husband and wife, after they have been joined in a romantic interlude. The Minhah service of Shabbat is one of longing; longing to keep the feeling of closeness with G-d, longing for a future era of great peace. There is a short Torah reading at Minhah, taken from the opening of the next week's Torah portion. We realize that the delights are coming soon to an end, but another Shabbat is on the horizon. Now comes the culmination of Shabbat; Se'udah Slishit (Third Meal) German Jews call it "Shalosh Seudos" (Three Meals), as the other two are now combined into one. In Yiddish speaking circles, this is often (incorrectly) coalesced into "Shalehshudis". Most people go home for this meal. In other circles, it is celebrated at the synagogue itself. It is usually a smaller meal than the others; usually just bread and some fish. But the time is most unique. The melodies are haunting and piercing. Hasidic Rebbes deliver their main addresses to their followers at this time. On the other hand, some Hasidic Rebbes have their meal sequestered all alone, contemplating the significance of Shabbat, Seudah Shlishit, life, death, eternity...and G-d. Although the meal begins before sundown, it often continues late into the night. Some groups remain in the dark; listening to their rabbis expound on spiritual concepts, giving them time to introspect. I have seen groups where sobbing can be heard coming from the people struggling with their emotions in the dark. It is like an exercise in dying.  A few groups continue the experience until midnight. Some consider the time so sacred, that they refuse to spend it eating. However, the third meal is a halachic obligation. I have seen the "arguments" that some make for neglecting it. In my opinion, these arguments hold no water. Rabbi Nachman once said "it is like little children, wanting to be fed. When the parent says alright, it's now time to eat, the children decide that they don't want to".In my next post, I will discuss what comes after Seudah Shlishit.

Shabbat part 18

We come home. The food is ready to be served. Kiddush over wine or hard liquor is recited. If kiddush was recited in synagogue, most will forgo saying it again, while others will say it (I do), a practice stemming from a careful reading of the Talmud. Others refrain, based on many alternative interpretations.  If any family members were not present at synagogue, it must be recited. Whereas in most traditional, rather than Orthodox families the Friday night meal is the central family observance of Shabbat, Orthodox Jews make the daytime meal the most lavish. Many sit around the table for two hours or more, not only eating, but also singing and sharing words of Torah. The blessing on the bread is recited, with most having fish for the first course. Here too, different fish recipes are enjoyed in different communities. Moroccans make a wonderful dish called "schenah"; fish baked in a sauce of tomatoes and peppers. Most Ashkenazim have gefilte fish. Many types of Hasidim will again have a sweet and a vinegary fish dish. After the fish, some liquor is served (Russians will have Vodka, Polish will have whiskey, Mid Eastern Jews will have Arak, essentially the same as the Greek Ouzo.) Women often will imbibe liqueurs, while many prefer not to drink alcohol in front of men because of modesty concerns. Singing ensues. Afterwards, the main course(s) are brought out. As I have mentioned before, a common feature of Jewish heresies has been the abstaining from hot food on Shabbat. Therefore, we go out of our way to partake of hot food, as a way of disassociating ourselves from those who distort the Torah. Ashkenazim have a dish called "chulent". There are numerous, fanciful explanations for the name. Actually, it comes from the Italian "Caldo", meaning "hot" (English speaking tourists in Europe often get a nasty surprise when they turn on in the shower what they believe is cold water, because it is labeled caldo). Why would Polish, Russian, Hungarian, German Jews give their Shabbat dish an Italian name? Few are aware that the origins of Ashkenazi Jewry go back to Italy before about 800 CE, when Charlemagne invited Italian Jews into Franco Germany. The dish is at least as old as that! Basically, it is a casserole of meat and beans, which has been sitting on the blech since before Shabbat. Russian Jews also put potatoes in their chulent. Hungarian Jews serve a soupy chulent. Sepharadic Jews serve a variety of dishes, called by the collective name "Hammin", also meaning "hot". (The plural ending "in" often replaces "im" in post-Biblical Hebrew). This can be dishes of meat with pasta, beans, or various kinds of grain, either left on the blech, or cooked before Shabbat, and placed on the blech that morning. The traditions of various communities that I wrote about in relation to the Friday night meal are here repeated. A difference is seen in some Hasidic communities, where a variety of dishes are served that are intended to represent the ten Sefirot; the mystical attributes of G-d. These include eggs with onions, jellied calf's foot, kugel (a pudding made from noodles, bread, or potatoes.) It may be sweet or savory, kishke (animal intestines, cleaned and stuffed with fat and flour, well seasoned). No one walks away hungry from such a meal. More singing, more talking, and it's time for a Shabbat nap.

The Twilight Zone

Please note: This is not part of the current series, but rather a response to a number of questions that have been raised. Nevertheless, it is germane to issues related to the beginning and end of Shabbat.

The Twilight Zone
It is a mistaken idea that the day in the Jewish calendar begins and ends at sundown. We need to understand that there is a separation between day, twilight, and night. However, the definitions of these divisions is a subject of much discussion and debate. Until sundown, it is day (except according to one 12th century view, which we shall ignore for purposes of this article. ) According to most rabbis in the Talmud, as well as later views, sundown begins the period called "twilight" (Bein Hashemashot). It is uncertain if twilight is considered part of the day, part of the night, or up to some point day, and then night. As a result, we apply our old rule; to be strict in a Biblical requirement, and lenient in a rabbinic requirement. If a Biblical requirement needs to be performed by day, it should be done before sundown. If a rabbinic requirement needs to be done by day, we can go until twilight is over. Likewise, if a Biblical requirement is for the night, we must (in most cases), perform it only after twilight; if a rabbinic requirement, from sundown is fine. RAMBAM, also basing himself on a statement in Talmud has a  different view. We divide the time between sunset and night into two. The first half is completely day, the second half is twilight. (The term "shki'ah" is usually applied to sunset, but there are so many other usages of the word, that I will avoid it). So when is night? Simple. When the stars come out. But how many stars? The Talmud says "three stars, not scattered, but close together". OK, and how long is that? "The time it takes an average person to walk three-quarters of a mil. What's a mil? It's a Roman mile, roughly equivalent to a kilometer. And how long is that? Views differ for the time it takes to walk a mil between 18 minutes and 24 minutes. So, three-quarters of that time would be 13 1/2 minutes, to 18 minutes. But wait; the sun sets, and dark comes, at different rates of speed depending on the time of year, and distance from the equator. So, if we take the 18 minute mil, night would arrive between 14 and 20 minutes after Sundown in New York, depending on the time of year. Today, we have computerized calendars, that make this calculation easy. As there is a mitzvah to add to Shabbat, most people will wait at least half an hour after sundown to conclude it. Many wait even more.Now comes the complicated part. Throughout these essays, I have usually taken the view of RAMBAM as the most authoritative. But for our Ashkenazi brethren, that position is shared with Rabbi Jacob Tam (Rabbenu Tam, 1100-1171). One encounters debates (fruitless, in my opinion) as to which one is the greatest. RAMBAM was the greatest at determining the correct tradition on the basis of sources, oral traditions, and logic. Rabbenu Tam had few oral traditions, but was a master at interpreting the Talmud as a text, demanding analysis. When there are several views in the Talmud on a given subject, RAMBAM will try to zoom in on the most logical. Rabbenu Tam will try to make an interpretation that encompasses all views, or at least as many as possible. Aside from the above interpretations of nightfall, there is another one mentioned in Talmud. This view says that the "stars coming out" is not to be interpreted literally, but as the time when visible daylight leaves the horizon. How long is that? The time it takes to walk four mil; 72 minutes. Those rabbis who were well versed in astronomy knew that this, too, must be adjusted for time of year and distance from the equator. But most rabbis were NOT versed in astronomy, and this figure was understood as a constant. In the Land of Israel, the sun is 16.1 degrees under the horizon at 72 minutes. Those who accurately keep the "Time of Rabbenu Tam", will not consider it evening, or end Shabbat, until the sun is 16.1 degrees under the horizon locally, However, Rabbenu Tam didn't stop there. What about the other view, the main view in the Talmud that twilight lasts for 13 1/2 minutes? Rabbenu Tam, combining these views, worked out the following: Sundown is meaningless. For 58 1/2 minutes after sundown, it is actually DAY. At 58 1/2 minutes, starts twilight, becoming night at 72. This became standard in most places for the next six centuries, primarily because of the stature of Rabbenu Tam. In the eighteenth century, a number of rabbis, especially  Elijah of Vilna, showed this view to have no connection with any observable astronomical facts, and it largely fell by the wayside. However, in many Hasidic circles (and ever some Yeshivish circles), it remains standard until this day. Some keep it as a stringency. But many will pray the afternoon service (minhah) until almost an hour after sundown. Many (including yours truly) consider this a gross mistake. Those who end Shabbat at straight 72 minutes, are fooling themselves. That is NOT the "time of Rabbenu Tam".

Shabbat part 17

We have discussed the major methods of warming food on Shabbat, in accordance with Sepharadic and Yemenite traditions. How, and why, do the Ashkenazim differ? Primarily, it is over concerns of somehow causing some traces of food to actually cook on Shabbat, sometimes over terms not sufficiently defined in classical sources. The Ashkenazi, like the other groups, will make use of a blech over the stove, or an electric hotplate. Unlike his Eastern brothers, he will not have anything on a timer, as this might constitute causation (grama) of cooking. Whereas Sepharadim consider Grama to be permissible in any case of need, Ashkenazim only resort to it in cases of great necessity. All food meant to be served by day must stay on the heat all night. Usually, he will be careful that all food be fully cooked. Nevertheless, he will treat it as though it hasn't been, just in case a portion of the food has not been cooked sufficiently. Some braver souls WILL put up food that is not fully cooked, under one of two conditions. Either it must be sufficiently cooked, albeit very rare, so that a person might eat it in an emergency. The other alternative is that the food, or at least part of it, be completely raw at the start of Shabbat, so that he will take his mind off of it until the daytime meal; not stirring it or doing anything else that could hasten cooking. The food for Friday night was, of course, fully cooked in advance, and just kept warm on the blech. Upon returning from synagogue after the morning prayers, those pots containing only food that is for now, rather than those that will be eaten later, can be removed from the heat, and served normally, although no stirring will be allowed while the pot is on the heat. (Sepharadim would not hesitate to stir, as long as the food is fully cooked). In the event that we will want to replace the pot for later, the pot will be removed from the heat, while taking care to continue holding it by the handle. If the pot is put down, it may not be returned to the heat anymore. (Some permit returning it as long as it is still very hot, at least in an emergency, when no other warm food will be available). Food is removed with a ladle or serving utensils. If the food was left out sufficient time that it was no longer "yad soledet" (hot enough to make the hand recoil), it can no longer be put back onto the heat. In many families, even Friday night they will serve from the same pots, using this same procedure. Once on the plate, it is no problem to eat it together with other foods; condiments, vegetables, and the like. However, if the food is in large chunks (davar gush), it will be given time to cool a little first, as most Ashkenazim consider a solid piece of food as holding heat, to be considered as though it is still on the fire. (Sepharadim and Yemenites have no such concept). Now, what about something to drink? Tea or coffee? Hot water has been left either on the heat, or in an electric urn. According to most opinions, pouring boiling water directly over uncooked food, constitutes a type of cooking, at least by rabbinic law. We call the vessel that had been over the fire "Kli Rishon" (first vessel). A Kli Rishon will cook uncooked foods inside of it, or that have the hot water poured directly onto them. None of the groups will put anything into it, so as not to give the appearance of cooking. Once the water has been poured into a second vessel (Kli Sheni), Sepharadim and Yemenites will put anything into it; coffee, tea, consomme, etc. Some will avoid putting into a Kli Sheni thin leaves (such as tea or mint), as perhaps they will cook even in a kli sheni, so the water is poured into a third vessel, a kli shlishi. Many Ashkenazim will prepare nothing in a kli sheni. Most Sepharadim and Yemenites will prepare anything in a kli sheni. Sepharadim will pour boiling water over coffee, since it has been previously roasted. Ashkenazim consider boiling after roasting to be a problem, so they will go to a kli shlishi. Many Ashkenazim see the brewing of tea as too close to cooking in any case, and will make a "sens" (essence) of concentrated tea before Shabbat, mixing it with hot water in a kli shlishi. There are many more details, that one picks up over time, but few are concerns for Sepharadim and Yemenites. I have been Sepharadi for thirty-one years, and some of this was hard to remember. All this talk is making me hungry. Let's eat!

Shabbat part 16

Anyone who studies the laws of Shabbat is usually mystified by the complexity of everything involved with cooking. But what is complex is not actually the halachah, but the numerous svarot (theoretical constructs) of some later rabbis, as well as the difficulty of comparing modern cooking methods and their halachic status with ancient ones. Rule number one is the clear statement in all classical sources "Ein Biushul Ahar Bishul" (there is no such thing as cooking after cooking); that is, once an item is fully cooked, further cooking is of no halachic significance in terms of Shabbat. Most Yemenites go by this rule even today, with Sepharadim following not far behind. If an item was cooked prior to Shabbat, there is no problem to stick it in the fridge, and heat it up on Shabbat. If something was only partially cooked, that's where the problems come in. It may cook further. If stirred, an uncooked part may be moved closer to the heat, and become cooked faster. Aside from the above rule of "Ein Bishul...", there are a number of rabbinic considerations. Most stoves in Talmudic times were simply boxes with fuel (charcoal, twigs, etc.), with a hole for the pot to sit in. When keeping food warm, there was concern that we are actually cooking it, or appear to do so (Meihazi K'mevashel). Therefore, most of the fuel needed to be removed, with some ashes spread over the remaining coals to show we are only keeping the food warm. I don't know about your stove, but mine doesn't work that way. In more recent centuries, this was replaced by putting a piece of sheet metal (known in Yiddish as a "blech") over the flame, with the pots sitting on the metal. In the case of the oven, it is kept at a lower than normal temperature, usually with the oven door kept slightly ajar, in order to indicate that food is merely being kept warm. (Ovens made in Israel have a special Shabbat setting). One may also use an electric hot plate (according to most). This can be kept on a timer, heating up just before the food needs to be warmed. Sepharadic Jews are only one step stricter than the Yemenites. There is a significant minority of rabbinic opinions that the rule of "ein bishul..." applies only to solids, and not liquids. One could easily tell if a steak had been cooked or not. A pot of boiling water that has been cooled would be difficult to distinguish from freshwater (although it may taste flat). Therefore, Sepharadim will cook before Shabbat anything other than liquids. An electric urn can be left on for tea or coffee, or else water may be heated on Shabbat on an overturned pan, on the blech or hot plate, so that it will not get to the level of cooking. Many, but not all, Sepharadic poskim permit heating up previously cooked dishes, so long as the majority is solid.(This is my practice). So your roast beef need not be a dried-out brick. Heating in its own (previously cooked) gravy is fine, as long as the majority is solid. All this is for Sepharadim (although many Modern Orthodox have adopted these as well). Ashkenazim have much more complex procedures, to be discussed in my next post. But why? What are the concerns? First of all, how can you be certain that any given dish is fully cooked? Besides, what do you mean by "cooked"? Like in English, the Hebrew word has two meanings. It can include fried, roasted, broiled, as well as boiled. Or, it can mean only "boiled". So, does "Ein Bishul.."" mean only boiled foods, or all cooking methods?. Can I warm up on the blech (essentially broiling) a fully cooked boiled chicken? A Sepharadi would laugh at the question. The Ashkenazi would respond "What's your proof?" Beyond that, what do we mean by "dry"? Everything has some "juices" in it. Perhaps the "Ein bishul..." rule was only meant to be theoretical. Ashkenazim can also bring up the fact that RAMBAM interprets the "Ein Bishul.." rule to mean BIBLICALLY FORBIDDEN cooking, but still a rabbinic prohibition.Also, since our stoves and ovens are adjustable, the knobs must be removed or taped into place, so as not to transgress the laws of adding fuel to a fire, or partaking in a cooking procedure.(Sepharadim dismiss this out of hand, as we have no power to make new rabbinic enactments.) So as not to transgress rabbinic law, a number of procedures must be undertaken, essentially requiring the food to stay on the blech all of Shabbat, with brief exceptions to serve the food, carefully observing a protocol that I shall describe next time. Now, Sepharadim generally follow RAMBAM, with classical Yemenite practice even more closely following RAMBAM. But here, most Sepharadic and Yemenites have rejected his position as excessive, and contrary to older sources. Rabbi Yosef Kappah, a great Yemenite sage (whom I was privileged to know), wrote that the practice of putting cold food to be warmed was used in Yemen way before RAMBAM. Since heating food on Shabbat follows nearly all rabbinic opinions, it is justified to leave the practice in place, for liquids as well as solids. Ashkenazim have great difficulty with that approach. Details to come.